Dhamma Conversations in Cambodia.

Chapter I

Discussion in the Unaloam Temple, Phnom Penh.

Sujin: I would like to invite you all to take part in the Dhamma discussion and if you have questions, please ask them because we do not have much time. I know that people in Cambodia take a great interest in satipaììhåna and therefore let us discuss this subject of Buddhism because it is of the highest benefit. If one studies the teachings without developing the understanding which realizes the dhammas one has studied, one merely develops theoretical understanding of realities.

There are realities, dhammas, all the time, also at this moment. When people study dhammas, they usually study concepts denoting realities. Dhammas are reality. However, if the Exalted One, the Sammåsambuddha, had not attained enlightenment, nobody would know that what we take for self, for the world, for different things, are only dhammas, each with their own characteristic.

I do appreciate the kusala all of you have accumulated, and this is the condition for you to come together at this place. If you had not accumulated kusala in the past there would no condition for you to listen to the Dhamma now.

The Dhamma is the truth but it is difficult to comprehend. No matter whether one is born as a human being or as another kind of living being, there are only dhammas, realities, that are born. However, how many people who listen to the Dhamma can really understand that everything is only dhamma, reality?

It seems that the Dhamma which is real is very ordinary. However, it is difficult to really understand it, because it is the true Dhamma of the ariyans, the enlightened ones. When we are sound asleep nothing appears to us, but why is it that as soon as we have opened our eyes there are objects appearing to us? This seems very ordinary to us, but we should really understand the reason why, while we are asleep, nothing appears, and why, when we have opened our eyes, different objects can appear.

If there would not be nåma dhamma (mental reality), there would not be any reality that could appear. If there would not be seeing, different things could not appear at this very moment. If we would not hear, smell, taste, experience things through the bodysense or think, the world could not appear. At this moment we all are seeing and on account of what we see happiness or sorrow arises. When we hear, happiness and sorrow arise on account of what we hear. It is the same in the case of the experiences through the other senses.

This is the ordinary daily life of everybody. Every day we see, we hear, we experience happiness and sorrow, time and again. Everybody is attached to what he sees. Can anyone deny that he clings each time he sees? These are dhammas which arise and take their course, and nobody can prevent them from arising. When life arises it has to take its course each moment, and nobody can exert control over the amount of happiness or sorrow he experiences, this depends on conditions.

Do you think about birth in the same way as the Bodhisatta? You may think that being born is just an ordinary event, common to everybody. Nobody can prevent this and nobody particularly wants to be born, but when there are the right conditions there has to be birth. However, the Bodhisatta reflected on birth as follows: dhammas which have arisen must fall away. When will there be an end to what is susceptible to change, when will it fall away and not arise again?

People who have not realized the noble Truths ¹ and do not take an interest in the Dhamma will have to continue to see, to hear, all the time, in each plane of existence, during each life. This will happen until they begin to see that it is of the greatest benefit to study the Dhamma and to hear the Dhamma from the person who has attained enlightenment and who could reach the end of the arising of dhammas.

People who are not the Sammasambuddha nor a “Solitary Buddha” (Pacceka Buddha) ² should be “listeners”, people who listen attentively and with great care to the Dhamma. We should remember that the Dhamma the Buddha realized through his enlightenment is of a profound nature and that nobody can understand it without study and investigation.

The Buddha realized through his enlightenment the true Dhamma of the ariyans (the enlightened ones). He realized the dhammas which are reality, so that people who had developed paññå to the degree of penetrating the true nature of these dhammas could become ariyans as well.

We may have developed worldly knowledge in many fields, in many branches of science, but we are still susceptible to suffering, dukkha. All of us have to undergo many kinds of dukkha. Let everybody here consider the truth of daily life: we have a body and thus, we are susceptible to sickness, to suffering. We should realize that even a discomfort such as hunger occurring in daily life is dukkha. Is there anybody who never experienced pain or illness? Even while we are sitting now we may feel stiffness.

Apart from bodily pain occurring in daily life, there is also mental pain. When we suffer from bodily pain there is bound to be mental affliction as well. We can discern these two kinds of dukkha; we can see that bodily pain is real and that mental pain, oppression or disturbance, is also dukkha. We can understand that these two kinds of dukkha are truly dukkha; they are called “dukkha dukkha”.

There are three kinds of dukkha: dukkha-dukkha (intrinsic suffering), vipariùåma dukkha (suffering in change) and saòkhåra-dukkha (suffering inherent in conditioned realities). As regards dukkha-dukkha, this is bodily pain and mental affliction that everybody experiences. This does not mean that people who know these kinds of dukkha are already ariyans. Everybody knows these kinds of dukkha in daily life. There is another kind of dukkha which is vipariùåma dukkha, dukkha because of change. This kind of dukkha occurs when happiness changes, when it does not last. Everybody looks for happiness and wants to experience happiness, but when one has acquired it, it changes again, it does not last. What causes happiness is susceptible to change and then one looks again for something else that can bring happiness. For example, people wish to acquire a particular thing, but when they have acquired it, it can only bring happiness for a moment, and therefore, they wish to acquire something else again that can bring happiness. Thus, happiness which changes and does not last is a kind of dukkha, suffering.

Everybody has to experience dukkha, each day, but one does not feel that there is dukkha because of the fact that everything arises and then falls away, that everything changes very rapidly. One does not realize the dukkha inherent in all conditioned dhammas, saòkhåra dhammas, which are impermanent.

The Buddha explained the characteristics of the three kinds of dukkha by way of feelings. As to dukkha-dukkha, this is bodily pain and unpleasant mental feeling, domanassa vedanå, which is mental pain. Thus, when dukkha-dukkha is classified by way of feelings, it includes the painful feeling which accompanies body-consciousness and the unpleasant mental feeling which accompanies the citta with aversion. Happy feeling, sukha vedanå, is a cause for suffering when it changes, and one looks for another object that can bring happiness; thus, it is suffering in change, vipariùåma dukkha. Indifferent feeling, feeling that is neither pleasant nor unpleasant, and also all other dhammas which arise and fall away, which are impermanent, are saòkhåra dukkha. People may well know bodily suffering and mental suffering, and they may well realize that even pleasant feeling is suffering, since it is susceptable to change, but this does not mean that they are ariyans. They cannot become enlightened until they realize the kind of dukkha which is saòkhåra-dukkha, dukkha inherent in all conditioned realities.

Is there anybody among you while you are sitting here who really knows to what extent there is dukkha? Everything arises and then falls away extremely rapidly. People who have studied the Dhamma know that a moment of seeing is different from a moment of hearing and that therefore seeing has to fall away before the reality of hearing can arise. Everybody can know through the study of Dhamma that the arising and falling away is dukkha, but this is understanding of the level of theoretical knowledge, pariyatti. This is different from the direct realization of the truth that the dhammas which arise and then fall away are dukkha. We read in the “Kindred Sayings” (IV, Saîåyatana vagga, Second FiftyCh 3, § 81) that sectarians asked the monks for what reason they were ordained in accordance with the Dhamma and the Vinaya. The monks answered that the reason was practising with the purpose of realizing dukkha. We read that the monks said to the Buddha ³ :

“Now here, lord, the wandering sectarians thus question us: ‘What is the object, friend, for which the holy life is lived under the rule of Gotama the recluse?’ Thus questioned, lord, we thus make answer to those wandering sectarians: ‘It is for the full knowledge of dukkha that the holy life is lived under the rule of the Exalted One.’ “

We then read that the monks asked the Buddha whether their answer was in accordance with his teaching. The Buddha stated that it was. He then said:

But if, monks, the wandering sectarians should thus question you: “But what, friend, is that dukkha, for the full knowledge of which the holy life is lived under the rule of Gotama the recluse?”- thus questioned you should answer thus: “The eye, friend is dukkha. For the full knowledge of that the holy life is lived... Objects... mind...that pleasant feeling or unpleasant feeling or indifferent feeling that arises through mind-contact, - that also is dukkha. Fully to know that, the holy life is lived under the rule of the Exalted One.”.....

Thus we see that the understanding of dukkha has several degrees. There is not merely the degree of knowledge stemming from listening.

People who have not developed paññå, right understanding, may understand in theory, because they listened to the Dhamma, that the citta which sees falls away. However, they do not realize that the impermanence of all conditioned realities is dukkha. As soon as one kind of citta falls away it is succeeded by another kind of citta which arises. One kind of dhamma arises and falls away and then another dhamma arises succeeding it, but when paññå is not keen enough, people are not ready to see the continuous arising and falling away of all conditioned dhammas, thus, they do not realize these as dukkha. The arising and falling away of dhammas occurs extremely rapidly and therefore people still tend to believe that these dhammas are a self who is there all the time. They are not immediately affected by the arising and falling away of the dhammas that see or hear. They take dhammas for permanent and self, until they know the true nature of the dhammas and do not take them for self any more.

The understanding which is the study of dhammas should be developed gradually, stage by stage. One cannot forego any stage of development, and therefore, it is not possible to realize immediately the arising and falling away of realities. It is necessary to know first the characteristic of nåma which is non-self, and the characteristic of rúpa which is non-self.

We have discussed this subject here only for a little while and therefore you may not be able to realize already the characteristic of nåma dhamma and of rúpa dhamma. We should continue to discuss this subject for a long time. Buddhism does not teach only about dukkha, it also teaches about the cause of the arising of dukkha, the dhamma which is the cessation of dukkha and the way of the development of paññå that leads to the complete cessation of dukkha, so that it does not arise again.

This is the teaching of the four noble Truths. Paññå that can penetrate the four noble Truths should be developed stage by stage. For example, there is seeing at this moment and this is real, and thus, paññå can only know the characteristic of the dhamma which is seeing. It can realize seeing as the dhamma which knows an object, as an element (dhåtu) which knows or experiences. What appears through the eyesense is rúpa dhamma that does not know anything. This is the development of paññå in daily life. Daily life is different for different people; some people may have accumulated skill for jhåna and others not, but realities appear naturally in the life of each individual. So long as lokuttara citta (supramundane citta experiencing nibbåna) has not arisen yet a person cannot consider and investigate lokuttara citta as the noble Truth of dukkha, but he can investigate other cittas that arise and appear at this moment.

Thus, the study of dhammas should be in conformity with a person’s real life so that he can understand what has been taught in the Tipiìaka, also with regard to the four noble Truths. When someone is seeing and satipaììhåna does not arise, paññå cannot clearly realize the difference between nåma dhamma and rúpa dhamma and then the noble Truth of dukkha cannot be penetrated.

At this moment dhammas are arising and falling away, but ignorance (avijjå) cannot penetrate the truth and there is still clinging and desire to realize the truth. All kinds of clinging and desire are obstructions, they prevent a person to become detached and to realize the third noble Truth, the cessation of dukkha, that is, nibbåna.

Paññå is not developed if one merely expects to know what has not arisen yet, what has not appeared yet. However, there is a way to test whether there is the real paññå or not at this moment, when a reality is appearing. We can find out whether or not the characteristic of that reality can be understood as a nåma dhamma or a rúpa dhamma. People should not have false expectations to know a reality other than the dhamma that appears at this very moment.

At this moment a reality is appearing but there is no pañña which knows as it really is the characteristic of that reality. How can paññå then develop? If there is no understanding at this moment, there will not be understanding at the next moment. Only when paññå arises together with sati, when there is awareness and understanding of the characteristic of the reality that appears, can paññå can gradually develop. Paññå can grow together with sati which is aware over and over again of the characteristics of all kinds of dhammas. In this way there can be understanding of all dhammas appearing through the eyes, the ears, the nose, the tongue, the bodysense and the mind-door.

People should understand correctly that the reality appearing at this very moment is the dhamma pañña should know as it really is. If they do not know yet the dhamma which appears now, they should continue to study the Dhamma and continue to listen to the Dhamma. In that way understanding can grow and there will be conditions for the arising of satipaììhåna. There is no other way to know the characteristics of dhammas as they really are.

When you are listening and beginning to have understanding, you are actually beginning to develop the pañña that is able to know the characteristics of realities. This is the very beginning of the development of insight, of vipassanå.

But Sawong: there is a question about a parrot that develops satipaììhåna by reciting, “Atthi, atthi ” (the påli term for bones) ³ . I would like to ask how rúpa dhamma or nåma dhamma can be the object of satipaììhåna in this way?

Sujin: A parrot cannot know the four noble Truths and nobody can know the mind of a parrot.

If a parrot says, “bones” and a human being says the word “bones”, is there a difference between the ability of a bird and of a human being to understand the meaning of this word? What is a person thinking who has listened to the Dhamma for a long time and hears the word “bones” ; does he think in a way different from a parrot ?

A parrot and a human being have each a different bodily appearance. Is seeing-consciousness different in the case of a parrot and of a human being, or is it the same? We can see that a parrot is different from a human being because of its bodily appearance. However, nåma dhamma has no outward appearance; there are kusala cittas and akusala cittas which arise. Birth as a bird is the result of akusala whereas birth as a human is the result of kusala. We should consider the Dhamma in all details. When someone just listens to the words of the Dhamma without considering them he may mistakenly believe that a parrot can develop satipaììhåna. The parrot may have accumulated inclinations which we cannot know; it is true that the Bodhisatta who developed paññå was also born as a bird in his former lives. We do not know about this, we only know with regard to ourselves the realities which arise. We can find out that satipaììhåna is not at all easy. We have to listen to the Dhamma for a long time so that there can be conditions for sati to be aware of a reality even at this very moment.

Nobody here can know the citta of someone else, and who would have the kind of paññå that knows the citta of a parrot? Thus, what we would be able to know is our own citta at this moment and this is what is most beneficial. Then we shall know that even thinking of a parrot is only one moment of citta that thinks. This is different from the citta that sees or hears. This is the way to develop paññå so that we correctly understand the characteristic of nåma dhamma, the element that knows, that can know an object through the eyes, the ears, the nose, the tongue, the bodysense and the mind-door. Everybody here can only know his own citta and thus he should have more understanding of his own citta.

But Sawong: There are questions concerning the development of satipaììhåna. In the section on “Clear Comprension” it has been stated that one should be aware while going forward. Should sati be aware now of going forward or of the element of wind produced by citta which conditions the going forward?

Sujin: At this moment nobody is going forward, but sati can arise and be aware of the characteristic of the dhamma that is real at this moment. There is no need yet to think of something. If you can understand the characteristic of sati which is aware of the characteristic of the reality now there will be no doubt about the object of awareness. Sati is anattå, non-self, and when there are the right conditions it can arise and be aware of realities at any moment in daily life, no matter whether one sits, is lying down, stands, walks, speaks, is silent or thinks.


But Sawong: Someone has a question about right understanding, sammå-diììhi. He asks whether sammå-diììhi arises when someone practises satipaììhåna in daily life. Can he at such a moment consider rúpa dhamma and nåma dhamma? Or are there other dhammas arising together with sammå-diììhi that he can consider?

Sujin: There are eight Path factors, but usually we have to do with five factors, because the three factors which are the abstinences (virati cetasikas) arise, all at the same time, only with the supramundane citta, lokuttara citta ⁵ . The five Path-factors are: right understanding (sammå-diììhi), right thinking (sammå-sankappa), right effort (sammå-vayåma), right mindfulness (samma-sati) and right concentration (sammå-samådhi).

The characteristic of a particular cetasika can only be known if there is mindfulness of it at that moment. If there is no sati, right thinking, for example, does not appear and thus the characteristic of right thinking cannot be known. The citta which sees is accompanied by seven kinds of cetasikas ⁶ but if sati is not mindful of these cetasikas they do not appear and then they cannot be known. When, for example, at the moment of seeing, the cetasika that is life-faculty (jívitindriya, maintaining the life of the accompanying nåma-dhammas) or the cetasika that is volition (cetanå cetasika) do not appear, they cannot be known.

While we are sitting there is rúpa produced by citta ⁷ . How can this rúpa be known? When a particular reality is known, it can be known only when it appears through the appropriate doorway. When a blind person, for example, wants to know what the different colours really are, he cannot know this because the eye-door is lacking. Sound does not appear to a deaf person, and thus, paññå could not know the characteristic of sound.

At this moment a reality appears and thus there must be a doorway, the means through which that reality can appear. Without a doorway that reality cannot appear. With regard to the rúpa produced by citta, this arises within oneself, not outside. Therefore, only when it appears through a doorway could it be known.

Can anybody without the rúpa which is bodysense (kåyapasåda rúpa) experience a rúpa appearing on the body? Can rúpas such as softness, hardness, cold, heat, motion or pressure appear? When someone’s bodysense is contacted by cold, heat, softness or hardness, he takes the cold, heat, softness or hardness for his own. The rúpas of cold, heat, softness, hardness, motion and pressure arise and appear on the body, but if a person does not know that they are not self or belonging to a self, how can he know the characteristic of rúpa produced by citta? Cold, heat and the other rúpas appearing through the bodysense are not only rúpas produced by citta; they can also be rúpas produced by the other three
factors, namely, kamma, temperature (utu) and nutrition (åhåra).

Thus, the study on the level of theoretical knowledge of the Dhamma (pariyatti) is the study of the names of realities. At that level the characteristics of realities do not appear to paññå. Paññå should be developed stage by stage so that the true nature of realities can be directly known.

But Sawong: The venerable Patriarch has some questions. If it is true that one cannot choose or select any object for the practice of satipaììhåna, how do you explain that, as we read in the commentaries, objects are selected in accordance with a person’s temperament or character, such as a greedy temperament (tanhå carita) or a speculative temperament (diììhi carita) ⁸ . Furthermore, some people have samatha as their vehicle, they have developed tranquillity and insight, and some have vipassanå as their vehicle, they have developed only vipassanå. In the Commentary to the Satipaììhåna Sutta a city with four gates has been compared to nibbåna, and it has been explained that just as people can enter a city with four gates by anyone of these gates, one can attain enlightenment by means of anyone of the four applications of mindfulness, mindfulness of the body, of feeling, of citta and of dhammas. How do we have to understand this?

Sujin: Usually when people read in the scriptures about these subjects they desire to know more about this, or they desire to act in a particular way. When they hear about different temperaments, such as a person of an intelligent temperament, a ruminating temperament, or a hateful temperament, they think of themselves as having such or such temperament and they choose a particular way of development which suits their character. However, in reality this subject of the Dhamma has been taught so that it is a condition for the arising of paññå that knows the truth. Only when one develops satipaììhåna, paññå can arise and then a person can know what character or temperament he has. Without the development of satipaììhåna he does not know realities and he can only guess what kind of temperament he has. There are qualities such as attachment, aversion, ignorance, and also paññå, understanding of the Dhamma. What temperament do we have? This is only thinking and guessing. Everybody has these dhammas. Only when paññå arises and sati is aware we can know the truth about the different characters of each individual, we can know how our accumulated inclinations are the condition for our own temperament.

Someone may guess about his temperament and he may believe that he should develop a particular object among the four Applications of Mindfulness. He hopes to obtain a result by this way of practice. However, this is not the right condition for knowing the truth of non-self of realities; it is not the way to know all realities thoroughly. Someone may select an object and fix his attention on that object since he believes that he has such or such temperament and that he should therefore develop this particular Application of Mindfulness. At that moment he neglects awareness of all the objects he is used to taking for self. Of what temperament is a person when attachment arises, when aversion arises or when ignorance arises? All these realities are non-self, anattå. Therefore, the wrong view of self cannot be eradicated by selecting an object someone believes is suitable for his temperament. It is true that in the development of samatha the object of meditation is selected in accordance with someone’s character. By the development of samatha defilements are subdued so that calm increases. However, the development of vipassanå is different from the development of samatha and it has a different aim, namely, the eradication of ignorance. Ignorance of realities conditions the wrong view which takes realities for self.

Therefore, in the development of satipaììhåna there should not be any selection of objects of understanding. In the “Path of Discrimination”(Treatise I on Knowledge, Ch 1, Section 1, All), it has been said ⁹ :

“Bhikkhus, all is to be directly known. And what is all that is to be directly known? Eye is to be directly known, visible object is to be directly known, eye-consciousness... eye-contact... any feeling that arises with eye-contact as its condition whether pleasant or painful or neither-painful-nor-pleasant is also to be directly known...”

Further on all realities are summed up and it is said that all of them should be known thoroughly, not any reality is excepted.

But Sawong: The venerable Patriarch wishes to express his appreciation, anumodana, to the Thai Buddhists who are a large group brought here by “Mother” Sujin, and who have come to Cambodia to support Buddhism. People here listen to the Dhamma now with great joy and happiness. The Patriarch considers himself as the host receiving his guests who bring along the noble Truths. He wishes to apologize if there is anything lacking or anything which is not as it should be.

Buddhism in this country has only recently be reestablished, since twenty years, because in the time before that it had all disappeared. At the present time the study of the Dhamma has just begun again. Usually people are trying to understand mahå-satipaììhåna and therefore, they have many questions on this subject. Everybody begins to understand the subject of mahå-satipaììhåna. They try to grasp the meaning of satipaììhåna and thus they ask questions all the time about this subject. If there are questions which are not suitable I also wish to apologize to Mother Sujin.

As the host, the Patriarch extends his blessings to everybody of this group and expresses his thankfulness.